Company culture is always changing β when you're at the first ten people versus when you're at twenty people, fifty, a hundred. There are real inflection points in a company where the culture is going to change whether or not you like it because there are more people, it becomes a mixing pot, it becomes more opinions, perspectives, experiences, and all of that informs your core culture.
β Β Hebba Youssef, Chief People Officer at Workweek and Founder and Creator of the 'I Hate it Here' newsletter and podcast.
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In this episode of Said with Candor Candorβs founder, Kelsey Bishop welcomes Hebba Youssef, Chief People Officer at Workweek, and the creative mind behind the newsletter and the podcast βI Hate it Hereβ. Tune in for an insightful chat about the growing importance of people functions in shaping the future of workplace and company culture.
π§ Listen to Said with Candor on your favorite podcast platforms: YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Google Podcasts. Show your support by liking and subscribing!
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Hebba Youssef is the Chief People Officer at Workweek and the Founder and Creator of I Hate it Here β a weekly newsletter and a podcast where Hebba shares insights, learnings, and advice for HR and People Operations, on how to build better company cultures. Hebba recently launched a community called Safe Space where HR professionals can connect and exchange struggles and learnings.
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π©βπ» Get to know Hebba on Candor: https://www.joincandor.com/users/hebba-youssef
π Explore Safe Space community on Candor: https://www.joincandor.com/teams/safespace
π Subscribe to βI Hate it Here' newsletter: https://workweek.com/brand/i-hate-it-here/
Check out βI Hate it Here' podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/3tQynk1plBVjKbTtOlZtg3?si=835eb81299034762
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What's Team Culture? How to Built it on a Remote Team
What is Employee Connection? Remote Work Edition
The Founder's Guide to Remote Onboarding
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Kelsey
β00:00:21:14
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Candor podcast, where we get candid about culture. Candor helps leaders create strong culture through Candor profiles, which is the best way to share how you work. You can sign up for Candor for free at joincandor.com. I'm Kelsey, the founder of Candor, and today I'm so excited to be joined by Hebba Youssef, the Chief People Officer at Workweek and the founder and creator of βI hate it hereβ the place for H.R. to build better workplace cultures. Welcome here.
Hebba
β00:00:47:21
I'm so happy to be here. I can't wait for the conversation today.
Kelsey
β00:00:50:21
Well, we can just kick things off. I mean, I'd love to hear about your experience. Kind of. We can just start with, like, CPAs, chief people officers, and kind of like the role you see yourself in kind of building company culture and how that compares to the founder role. And like, what's everybody else's role in this thing? Like tell me about the people functions and how you're looking at it.
Hebba
β00:01:11:13
Oh, man, that's such a loaded question. So like, βhow am I feeling today?β Is the real what we're going to have when you get here? I think it's very interesting time to be in the people space. Like in the last ten years we've seen this like monumental shift between like CFOs being the person in the boardroom that everyone's looking at to Zappos, to people saying how are people actually performing? Because how successful your business is really dependent on the people you have and the one person who's directly responsible for their success and their experience is the Chief people officer. And that feels like a very loaded thing to say. And a lot of founders are probably like, βno, that's not trueβ but it is because a lot of the people initiatives you do are going to be sort of formed. I don't even know what else. All the things you want to do are going to flow through your people function. And so I think like culture right now more than ever is so important or witnessing like a really interesting time after the pandemic where like connection is really low, engagement is really low in culture because of all the things happening externally in the market, like the layoffs, high inflation, high cost of living is really starting to impact company culture. We're like now more than ever, the chief of officers probably thinking, βWhat am I doing about my culture?β where I think founders are really focused on how do I build the best a company that's going to endure all the circumstances outside your people. Officers are probably thinking, βHow do I build a company that can continue to function despite all these outside forces that are putting pressure on the experience we're all having?β
Kelsey
β00:02:50:13
Yeah, and I think like the interesting part there is the founder might look at, okay, βhow do we set up sales to be defensible?β βHow do we set up marketing?β βhow do we set up all these things?β But, you know, the big elephant in the room is like, well, if you don't control for like setting up the people for success, actually you're not setting up the business to endure because if people are churning, if your culture stinks, then like no one's going to want to be around, set up sales and marketing and all these different processes.
Hebba
β00:03:18:19
Definitely not like your founders should be really focused on how do we build the best business and your people people should be focused on how do I understand what the business needs and then execute it through the people. And so Chief people, officer sit at a very interesting intersection of we have to understand the strategy of what the business is trying to do, because a lot of that strategy is going to inform what we need to do for the people. And so a lot of times people look at h.R. And they think like, oh, you're just like a compliance or a support function. But if you really want to unlock the true potential of your people and your company as a founder, you need to bring your H.R. person and your people person along for the ride. They have to understand the business strategy just as much as you do, because they are going to be the best people to tell you what you need from your talent, who you need to recruit for, how you're going to build internal succession planning. Like so much can go wrong when you're doing a business strategy. If you're not thinking about the people who are going to execute the actual strategy too.
Kelsey
β00:04:17:10
Speaking of things that go wrong with, where do you see the missteps happen? Like whether it becomes founder missteps or founder mistakes or just like in general, what do people get wrong when it comes to company culture?
Hebba
β00:04:29:21
First, company culture is always changing when you're the first ten people versus when you're at the 20 people versus 5100. There are like real inflection points in a company where the culture is going to change whether or not you like it because there are more people, it becomes a mixing pot, it becomes more opinions, perspectives, experiences, and all of that informs your core culture. And so there are like all these inflection points on which it changes and the things I think people get wrong. And it's like a hot take. Is that the right people that you hired when you were ten people might not be the right people for your company at 100 or 150. And that becomes really hard because I think a lot of founders reward loyalty. Like if you look at cap tables earlier employees get more equity. That's just like common understanding. And so that sometimes that loyalty makes, you hold on to people who might not be right in the future. And a lot of times you also need to layer, you need to build more layers in your company. So you kind of hire the first employee and they think like, oh, I'm going to be the CMO in five years. And it's like, you're not going to be the CMO. Like you're not, it's just not going to happen. But that is a really hard conversation to have, and I think a lot of founders, because of loyalty clouds it, don't want to have that convo. So they let people into leadership roles that really shouldn't be in leadership roles who are qualified or just need more guidance than if you hire external.
Kelsey
β00:06:01:17
It's tough, right? Because I find that also early employees start to be this like really powerful in a good and bad way, like the crux of the company culture, right? So when you when you kind of grow with an employee, everything that they are becomes part of your company culture and you're kind of like building with them as part of the fabric of your company. And so it feels natural to be like, well this person is so important to kind of the culture and like who we are and what we've become, to then like kind of promote them into different roles that maybe they don't belong into. Especially because when you're hiring early, you're hiring generalists, you're not hiring specialists, and that's what you need in the early days. You need people who do it all and get their hands dirty and maybe don't really dive deep into a particular area. And as you grow, maybe feel like that 25 person mark I've seen you really need to start getting more specialized because if you have these generalists running around, it's kind of like, well, nothing's quite great, everything's just okay. Which was great in the early days, but not, not in the in the mid-stage.
Hebba
β00:07:07:00
No. And having that conversation portion of you are not a specialist is a really hard conversation, totally and correctly, and it impacts your culture. Because when you start to say, like, I need a specialist, your employees are going to think, well, why is that not me? So you have that conversation. It might not go well. And then they start to think, well, do I even need to be here? Right? Maybe subconsciously they start to become disengaged. You notice the culture isn't as vibrant as it used to be. They're not coming to you with the feedback that you desperately want, but it's because they've started to think to themselves, βMaybe I don't belong hereβ.
Kelsey
β00:07:42:07
Yeah, and it's tough because in some ways they're right, right? Like they do. There is like an age out that naturally happens within companies. And I think one of the one of the mistakes that I've seen made in like my experience working for startups is like I think that not having honest conversations about, okay, this isn't working or hey, this is like a difficult feedback conversation, or just like your role doesn't make sense anymore. Like those suck to have. But that's leadership's role. Like that's how you create good culture that can evolve and can change in a really healthy way versus like this kind of evolve and change and like a downward spiral of like disengaged people is you kind of have to like, call out when something's not working.
Hebba
β00:08:23:16
Yeah, with a lot of people are afraid to say that. A lot of founders, I think y'all are a very interesting bunch of people that I'd probably like to study for a very long time. But a lot of founders are founders because they're so confident and the thing that they are building in the success that they will have that then when you have to tell them, βI think you made a mistake hiring this personβ, that is a really hard message to land and so I tell people like don't work in h.r. or in people ops if you are afraid of conflict, because our job at the end of the day is to, like, continually push the company forward, and that involves a lot of questioning of decisions being made and why it's all founders I've seen in the past who maybe aren't doing the self-work or are just very caught up in what it is they're trying to build have a hard time having that message land with them when you're telling them like, I think you made a mistake hiring this person or we've aged out this person, they're not right anymore to lead that strategy function. They almost don't want to hear it sometimes.
Kelsey
β00:09:21:10
Right. And even if they know you're right, I think communicating that you've mis hired or you haven't made the right decision to then like let go of someone who's aged out of the company, a founder probably knows instinctively like, Wow, I've messed up here and like, that sucks. Like for someone who's so confident and like, probably so proud of a team that they've built that is like I mean, speaking from my shoes like that is like I'm like, oh, like, that hurts. Like, that sucks. I really messed up here.
Hebba
β00:09:52:06
We involve our our identity. They've done a lot of studies on this that like, our identity is like very tied to our jobs, at least in America is very tied to our job and our job performance. And so we think if we hear something negative about our performance, we start to internalize it and think it's something negative about us. And so you can be self-aware about that. And as a founder like you should know that you're going to get a lot of hard feedback and that doesn't mean anything about your ability. It's the people that are willing to give you that hard feedback means they also care about your success and they care about your in because I guarantee you the feedback you're getting directly impacts your culture because everything impacts your culture.
Kelsey
β00:10:31:06
I'm curious how, like in your experience, how have you gotten people outside of like people ops and outside of founders involved in building company culture? Like how do you get people excited about it? Like what can they do? What can you do to get them involved? Like that type of, like maybe because culture to me shouldn't feel top down, the actions might end up being top down, but like it shouldn't feel like we're forced to go on a happy hour. We're forced to play board games on Tuesday night. Like that sucks. It's like, how do you not have that?
Hebba
β00:11:03:15
Ask your employees what they want and genuinely listen to them. Never stop asking them. And I don't mean just asking them in surveys. I mean having real conversations with them and creating that line of communication. So many people have told me they're I'm the first h.r. People person they've met that they feel like they can have an honest relationship with and share their thoughts and feedback. And that has only made me more successful selfishly, like i do it because it helps me create a better experience for them. And so making sure that you always have that open line of communication and asking them what they want is really helpful. We do a virtual happy hour at work week. It's like while attended, but we've been toying with like, what time do we do it? How do we frame it? Is it a happy hours at a coffee break? Is it a meet and greet? So even playing with the branding of how you're thinking about connecting your employees together is super important. But I asked everyone. We got a lot of feedback that people wanted more time together, so that's why we didn't have virtual happy Hours. That's why we started having that was because people wanted more time together as a team. Yeah, and then someone gave feedback, you know, for the parents, at the end of the day, this is not great. So now this month we're doing it in the middle of the day. Yeah, we're going to keep testing like morning, middle afternoon, trying to create a variety of options for employees to figure out what works for them.
Kelsey
β00:12:21:17
Right? And also allowing it to change I think is like, yeah, a piece of that where it's like, well, we're going to experiment with this and see how it lands, and then if it's not landing, we'll just change it. Like I think a lot of a lot of issues come up when you're like, okay, well we do this lunch hour and if you want connection, go to the lunch hour. It's like, well, maybe people aren't going because it's not quite working. Yeah.
Hebba
β00:12:46:06
Yeah, Or I don't want to eat my lunch. Then maybe I want to read during my lunch. Like there's a lot of things that are at play here It's it's really interesting. Letting your employee self organize is also really powerful. So we have like a lot of fun Slack channels at Workweek. My favorite is pop culture because I love pop culture. And so like you find your employees that want to opt into things will go and do the things they want to opt in. I think the thing we get wrong about culture is sometimes it feels forced youβre forcing everyone to partake. And my stance has always been we are an opt in, opt out culture. You opt into the things that you like, you opt up to the things you don't want to do. So if you want like intimate one on one time with people like go to the Slack channel, have a conversation about the thing you care about. If you don't want that, come to like the broader happy hour where you can just be like a fly on the wall and observe people. But it's really important to create those options for your employees so that they feel like they have some agency over the thing that they are doing.
Kelsey
β00:13:38:03
Yeah, and like the like norming people coming up with ideas for Slack channels or ideas for events and making them happen and creating space for that to be normal to do, I think is another piece of this. Because if I am, you know, an intern at a company and I really want a pet channel and that doesn't exist, how do you integrate into your culture that like it's okay if an intern wants to create a pet Slack channel, like that's, that would be a super cool thing where like the culture starts to feel a little bit more like opt in, opt out. But yeah, you have to kind of create the space for that to happen.
Hebba
β00:14:12:12
And sometimes like when you think about being a new employee, like being a founder, the head of h.r. Different. Like we have an active role in the culture, but being a new employee, you're just trying to figure out how you fit. And it's like that first day of school feeling all over again were like I was not cool in school. I was like a nerd. I'm still a nerd, but like, the first day of school, fear still comes when you join a new company. You're like, Oh my God, and I'm going to have friends here, right? And so, like finding other ways to let people connect with each other does so many great things for your culture, because then you become a culture that's like welcoming and belonging and inclusive. And if you're not thinking about like fostering that or finding natural ways to let your employees connect, your culture is going to suffer as well.
Kelsey
β00:14:55:17
Yeah, and like the like which kind of happened when we transition to a remote culture is like it doesn't happen naturally anymore. And I think a lot of people take that for granted where they're like, Oh, well, we're going to go back to the Office for Culture, And it's like, Well, there's other ways to build culture. It just requires more intentionality when you're remote. And so someone has to sit down and think about it and be like, okay, what makes sense here? Right? We're not in the office. Nobody's, you know, meeting the new kid when they come in the door at the coffee counter. So what do we do when a new hire comes in and feels like the new kid at school.
Hebba
00:15:31:01
The onboarding is so important for your culture, and it's the thing that I think sometimes we just like, Oh, it'll happen. And it's like, No, it doesn't work like that for everyone because like, I'm an extrovert and like, I will go weasel my way into conversations because that's just who I am. But like, you're introverted people or you're more shy people are not going to do that, and you have to build something that's going to find a way to make them comfortable and also connected to the people. Because that feeling of connection we need is like a human need, right? It's on the hierarchy of needs is like connection. We need it and we need it at work. But now we have to find new ways to facilitate it because it's not as easy as going back to the office. And honestly, returning to the office is not the solution, right? It's it's not the solution. But that's another heated debate that I have lots of thoughts on. Yeah, go back.
Kelsey0
0:16:18:19
Well, it's like whether you want to do h.r. And people and belonging in a lazy way or if you want to do it in a thoughtful way, in my opinion. Like, and maybe that's a hot take, but, like, why would I need to return to the office if I spend time thinking about my people connecting, if I spend time thinking about collaboration like, yeah, I yeah, I just think it's lazy. But then in my hot take of the day.
Hebba
β00:16:40:21
No, actually the studies have shown that you are more productive at work, you get more work done, but we are like commercial real estate fuels our economy and our communities and we are looking at like, I'm not going to say like a bank collapse, but like the banks just reported that earnings are down because they are they have commercial real estate spaces. And so the pressure we feel to go back to the office might not actually at all be about employee experience. It's an economic thing. I think it's interesting when CEOs the CEOs like Jamie Dimon are like, we should go back to the office. I'm like, Sir, if you could just be honest about why you want us back in the office, I would respect you more. But like as a person, I'm reading through the bullshit. You just want me in the office because you pay for that office space. We have to continue leasing out commercial real estate and communities in the area. Businesses thrive on us going to work and spending money. I just wish people would say that instead of being like it's for connection, that's a lie in any place. It's not right.
Kelsey
β00:17:46:19
Like, yeah, you're literally lying. Like you have an expensive lease, sir. That's why we're going back to the office.
Hebba
β00:17:53:06
To pay for this lease like that. I do know a company that got rid of their lease and instead they gave employees money. They took all the lease money and gave employees. I don't think they took all of it and gave it to employees. I still think they did some savings, but they gave employees like $100 a month to do whatever they wanted. It was there just as a team to do what they want. They can hoard the money and wait till the end of the quarter and do something bigger. They could do something once a month. It was up to them and that felt like a really empowering way to tell employees βWe care about culture, but we want it to be the culture the way that you care about it as wellβ.
Kelsey
β00:18:26:21
That's like, Hey, make space for people to lean in and get involved in culture. Yeah, okay. So give us a budget. Like make it exciting with give us an opportunity to say, Hey, I think it'd be so fun if we all did ax throwing this weekend or whatever it is that your team is excited about. But like, I guarantee that if you asked every member of a given team, they wouldn't say, βI want to go back to the officeβ. Like I'm sure there are people in there, but if you have $15,000 a month to spend, do you really want to spend it on an office or like, do you want to spend it on something else?
Hebba
β00:18:58:17
Where people might not do their best work? Like I get so distracted in an office, I know why I'm more productive at home because me in an office is like, I'm going to get coffee, I'm going to catch up with that person. I'm going to be a little social butterfly. I'm going to have lunch with that person when I'm at home, I'm like, I'm working for 10 hours straight. Yes, I'm like eating above my keyboard. Like the Apple Store keeps telling me to stop doing that. So I keep getting food in my keyboard that I can stop doing that. It's not like a problem. It's just like working from home. I don't know. Sell you also unhealthy like I know I'm working, I'm working on my boundaries, you guys. I also know it's unhealthy that I work that much, but you do more work at home. And so it's. Like this Office for Culture campaign that the media is on. I love reading like what the media writes about work because I'm always like an H.R. person would never agree to any of these things that you're saying. But okay. But to go back to the Office for Culture, I think is just a hoax. And I think it's like the lazy man's approach to we just want to make it happen naturally. We don't want to spend time thinking about it.
Kelsey
β00:20:02:14
Yeah, it's it happens on a lot of fronts. It's like, well, like so-and-so was getting promoted or like they were performing more. And it's like, well, like they were getting promoted because you liked them and they reminded you of themselves. And like, you know, you introduce actually like a lot more bias with a lot of this like kind of non-intentional culture building too, which I think is really interesting from just an inclusivity standpoint when like bonding and culture isn't actually like becoming buddies and it's more like getting to know each other as humans. There is a very fine line between those things, but I think the lazy way of going back to the office is a sophomore. It's like the buddy-buddy type of relationship building.
Hebba
β00:20:44:18
And it's also hard because I think hybrid is the worst of both worlds, honestly, which like I'm such a fan of remote work, I'm such a kind of hybrid work. But hybrid is the worst of both worlds, because then people who have the time to go in person get face time and recency bias is a real and like there's another bias. I can't hear the name right now, but also very real. Like you're closer to that person so you physically see them. Anything to myself? Oh, they must be a top performer because they're in this office every day. And so the struggle I think we're having like the next wave for people, leaders and for founders is if we have a hybrid culture, how are we still ensuring that it's equitable across the board?
Kelsey
β00:21:21:04
Is Workweek hybrid at all or youβre totally remote?
Hebba
β00:21:25:22
No, we have offices in Austin and New York. I'm in D.C., so I'm completely out. And it is tough because there are people that, like my founders, see every day and then there's me. I see them every four months, maybe, right?
Kelsey
β00:21:39:23
How do you do that? How do you make it feel equitable? If that's the case.
Hebba
β00:21:44:20
It's so hard and it's not by it's not because anyone is a bad person. It's just because sometimes it's easier when you're in person to be around a human or just be natural with them. And so just making sure that your processes are set up to be equitable, that everyone gets onboarded in the same way, everyone gets the same visibility. Like I can't control someone being in the Austin office and talking to our founders, but what I can control is all the new employees get a chance to meet our founders.
Kelsey
β00:22:10:17
Yes, yes.
Hebba
β00:22:11:19
That is really thinking intentionally. I'm like how you bring visibility to people that are remote and the experience they are having and how you welcome them into your org is really important.
Kelsey
β00:22:23:03
Yeah, I love that.
Hebba
β00:22:24:23
We're going to it's a struggle we're all going to work on for probably years to come. We're only what, three years out of the pandemic and we've learned so much in three years. I can't wait to see what we learn in the next five.
Kelsey
β00:22:38:13
But you have to assume that it becomes more remote and we get better on it. And it only becomes easier from here, right? Because if we're just adopting these strategies three years in, like imagine where we'll be in ten, where we have like the tools, the capabilities to really connect in a way that's natural, which I think is still kind of like a struggle.
Hebba
β00:23:00:20
It is like mind-boggling to me that the reason we work an eight-hour work day, five days a week is because of the Industrial Revolution. It's all sometimes I just like to sit up at night and think about that fact. We really should stop thinking about these things at night. But like, sometimes I think about that. So I'm like, We have not changed in that many years. And in the last three years I feel like we have seen radical change. And like my biggest fear for culture and like in general is that we just revert to what we were before the pandemic. Yeah, and total lose the things that we learned during the pandemic, which were so many things and like the importance of connection and teamwork and how to communicate with each other and working styles, my God, like, I think the things we have learned in the last three years will actually make us more inclusive as companies in the future. For parents, for those who are caregivers, for those with disabilities, for the LGBTQ community, like people who feel more welcome in a remote environment versus an in-person environment like that is so powerful. So the fact that, like these big CEOs are like, we must go back to the office, I'm like, Do you actually care about your people? And the answer is no. And truly, I'm on a campaign to just be like, then say you don't give a fuck, or you just.
Kelsey
β00:24:13:20
Say you care about business.Just be transparent about it.
Hebba
β00:24:16:23
We would respect you more. I still like the mask masquerading this as like a culture. And then you have the people in H.R. that are like, it's more inclusive when you're not in an office. Offices were built for like the experience of men. They didn't even have, like rooms for mothers to pump in until we passed laws to require there to be rooms and offices. So like, if you dissect all these things about what an office really is, it's like, where's their space for your diverse workforce? Like, do they even get to exist in an equitable way in this office? And the answer is like no from microaggressions about like underrepresented groups are facing. It's like the inclusivity piece of like they're only being pumping rooms after laws are being passed and offices are not built for those disabilities. Like, there's a lot of really interesting data out there about this that I wish more people understood about what forcing people back to the office really means.
Kelsey
β00:25:11:03
And it's the office, but there's so many things that I think we take for granted as normal in the workplace that actually nobody's questioned in so long. So we've we are like very keen on running experiments at Candor to like, test and see which hypotheses actually hold. We recently tried the four-day workweek, but we also don't have managers at Candor.
Hebba
β00:25:34:10
Iβm like obsessed with this idea.
Kelsey
β00:25:37:01
Yeah, I mean, I read an amazing book on it's called Reinventing Organizations. I recommend it to anyone who will listen to me talk about it. But there are so many things like that, which is like, what is the manager for? Like was it for like watching someone on an assembly line? Like make sure they did their job right? Because I don't need a manager at this like current day and age. Like, I just don't need someone watching my day to day moves. It's not productive for the org, it's not productive for me as an employee. And there are so many things like that that fall in the category of like, why do we even do this thing that I feel like, you know, hopefully in the next ten years we see more people start questioning.
Hebba
00:26:16:00
I think I wrote a newsletter about this. I bring so many at this point that I like lost out of all the things, but I write it. I wrote a newsletter about this because I debate managers all the time and it's like there have been three phases of management. There's this great Harvard Business Review article on this. I will find and also share it with you where like the role of the manager has had like three sizable shifts from like the Industrial Revolution where they invented managers to just watch you on the production line to make sure you were doing work, to then this second phase of management that really came about, I think like Six Sigma, the the rise and like the sixties and the eighties of like corporate America where like your manager then also became somebody who like delegate watched you but then also delegated work to you, helped you like, learn things and grow. And there's this new phase of managers in the last ten years where they're meant to be this like, empathetic coach who understands your life experience but also helps you put out great work. And so we've had all these like sizable shifts of what a manager is. But like now more than ever, we ask so much of managers and it's like, what is this job really? Because where it currently stands in corporate America as a manager, your were required to like drive your own team, work forward, then also coach and develop these people, then also manage up all of your bosses. Then also be the strategic visionary for your function. And that in a person is not inherent. Nobody is good at all. Four of those things inherently. Yeah, but we just promote people to managers and we let them be managers and then we're like, Wait a minute, why is everything on fire? Why are our employees unhappy? Why is that team not getting their work done on a deadline? Why are they not understanding the business initiatives? And it's like because that person is asked to do everything and they're trained to do nothing. So I love that you guys don't have managers. I think about this all the time. I honestly I feel bad for managers in corporate America. I dream where I can just if I was just responsible for like managing a team in the sense of coaching and giving them feedback, that would be my dream come true. But doing all of that and driving my own work forward is just exhausting.
Kelsey
β00:28:21:20
And it's not the same job, it's not the same skill set. So we as like a benefit. We just hire a professional coach for every single person on the team because it's like, I'm not a professional coach. I have no training in being a professional coach. Do I think people should listen to what I say? Sure. But like, should they know? Like they should just go work with someone who's trained as like a counselor, exact coach, whatever they want to work with. But like, when it comes to my work, like, I don't I don't know how to do that well.
Hebba
β00:28:52:11
No. And a lot of our experiences at work, like a lot of our how we behave, how we interact, are all shaped by our lived experience in life. So let's say you were a kid who didn't grow up with conflict in your family. We never saw conflict being resolved. You were going to grow up and become maybe a founder and executive was probably conflict averse. Yep. It's just that's just how it is. If you are not exposed to it at an early age, you actually can't figure outhow to handle it. And then you have to like go learn it, which I think you can learn it. Totally fair. Totally. But like me, I joke all the time. I fucking love conflict. My family did like dinnertime debates. Yeah, we would be like one side gets like it's about let's debate it like we're all debaters. I'd like honestly, don't fight my sister because she'll bust me no matter what years of experience with her, I can't win.
Kelsey
β00:29:39:21
And so I just. You're like, I'm just going to tap out of this one.
Hebba
β00:29:42:08
But I still thrive in conflict. So when people are like, how do you do the job? You are constantly having to tell people things. I'm like, This been my life, right? But if I was conflict-averse, like I probably should not be in this job and I really shouldn't be a manager.
Kelsey
β00:29:56:17
But we don't have these conversations. Like that's the crazy part is it's like you're not allowed to say, to be in this job you have to be like conflict forward like that would be too aggressive or like too real. But it's like that's that's actually like what a lot of managers need to be told is, Hey, here's a skill set. And like, it might not be in your personality. It might not be in your upbringing, but like, that's like what we need from this particular thing. And I know we're asking a lot, but like, yeah, that's what it is.
Hebba
β00:30:24:18
And your managers can do. They have the biggest direct impact, your managers and your leaders, the biggest direct impact on your culture and your people. Yeah. So if you were thinking to someone, I want them to be a manager, it's like, really think that through. Ask that person.Like when people tell me they want to be a manager, I say, Why? And they're like, Oh, because like, I want to make more money and I want to move up in the organization. And I always say, What if you could continue doing that as an individual contributor and you didn't have to manage people? Oh, I would love that. I didn't know it was an option. And I'm like, That should always be the option. You cannot force your people because you are doing more harm to your company if you force these people into management than if you just let them be individual contributors and continue to pay them and let them do higher and more intense levels of work.
Kelsey
β00:31:08:13
Yeah, and it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, which is people normally naturally age out of companies. And so if you make them a manager and they are aging out, what do you think the impact is going to be on all of the direct reports who see that they're not doing a great job right, Like basically a manager? It's anything that is their kind of like weakness. It is just magnified if they've got direct reports and if they're managing people. And so it becomes really difficult to like kind of control that issue versus If they're an individual contributor, it's like you can have an honest conversation and like the impact of it is limited.
Hebba
β00:31:45:00
Yeah, it's so funny because people are always like people quit managers and I always want to say, and you should literally think about who let that manager be a manager and it is your company. So if you're going to be mad about somebody, if you're going to say, This boss made my life hell and I'm quitting because of them, I am also and I would also say that then you go to your h.r. Team and say why did you let this person be a leader?
Kelsey
β00:32:07:01
It's so true.
Hebba
β00:32:10:09
Yeah. And I just wrote this past week. I wrote about how managers can create good team cultures. And one section in there, I told H.R. people like you should intervene. Intervention should always happen. If somebody's being a bad manager because you have the ability to correct it. But if you let it go on for too long, the damage it does to the culture, the team and the people who have to work with the team is hard to repair. All trust is lost at that point. When you let a manager go off the rails and do whatever they want and then treat people horribly, no one's going to trust in H.R. or the people function or the leaders. If that's the experience they're having.
Kelsey
β00:32:44:18
And they're going to leave. Like that's the sad part is like the damage is you can't repair something like that. People will just leave.
Hebba
β00:32:54:14
No, I know it's tough and we're in a really interesting job market right now, too, where it's like lots of people being laid off, lots of jobs. I think July was one of like not as many jobs added in July, but we were adding like record-breaking jobs earlier and like, are we having a recession or not having a recession? They're saying we're not going to have a recession. It's like.
Kelsey
β00:33:15:07
No idea.
Hebba
β00:33:15:19
Like. Okay, at some point, I was like, I didn't realize my job was also to, like, understand what was happening in the economy in the way it and, like, it happened so naturally to me that I'm like, Oh, all these outside forces naturally impact what happens at work. But now in this role as a founder and as the head of H.R. Like, you also have to understand what's happening in the world. We can't be blind to, like, the fact that a lot of external factors impact our internal culture. Oh, I was still marketing. People were like, no, no. And now people are like, oh, no.
Kelsey
β00:33:47:12
Oh, no, I have to do a layoff and you have to explain to everyone why no one realized or had the foresight that they would have to do a layoff. You know, it's like it's tough. It's these are hard conversations, but it's it's super real. I mean, thanks for coming on today's show, Hebba, and joining our discussion, everyone, on culture and how Hebba thinks about the people function and all this good stuff. If you are interested in creating better culture for your company, sign up for Candor at joincandor.com Until next time!
Hebba
β00:34:18:05
Thank you.
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